It could be just me but I thought his comment wasn't as bad as the Internet made it out to be. Ignorant for sure but it's not really something to be condemned or have a "downfall" for. At the end of the day, like you mentioned, they are still men, of course they don't understand womanhood like a woman does.
loved reading this! it really is so interesting to see these men who are one day randomly deemed ‘male feminists who ‘get’ it’ or ‘wife guys’ put up on a pedestal which they will inevitably fall from, as they are men and simply don’t have the experiences of womanhood to ever fully empathise or relate. i think it’s unfair for all parties.
The guy was being honest, and a realist. If I, or any man I know, is about to be attacked, the phone is the last thing that would come to mind. And no matter how much empathy, or respect, ( downright awe, most of the time ), that I, or men in general have for women, it is impossible for us to fully get the female perspective of living. I have a wife, daughter, and granddaughters, as well as my mother, in my life, and would gladly go to jail if it meant I protected them. I watch out for them. I fear over their safety, as does every man that I would count as a friend, does. It can make for a stressful life, believe me. But I will never be able to fully understand the challenges that are faced by women, and how these impact on their outlook. I think it was a throwaway remark by the man in question, and it was seized upon by those that seem to go out of their way to be offended, or rush to defend those they deem to have been offended. But, hey, I’m a man.. what do I know, eh?
I feel like the WBOTM Fall From Grace is a relative of the idea that any kind of ‘woke media’ (anything made by, for, or featuring marginalised communities) is more likely to be crucified by public opinion than those that don’t even try to be truly inclusive, because inevitably it will fail to deliver in some way, whereas you can’t fail if you don’t try.
In this case, the WBOTM isn’t even necessarily trying; as you’ve said, he’s just a (seemingly) sensitive dude who once wore a mitski t-shirt, so we the public project all these traits and expectations onto him, and turn away in disgust when he doesn’t meet them. (Which is not a lateral comparison to the above in terms of the outcome to their careers or wellbeing - heaven knows white cishet men with fame and money don’t need protecting and are will not be as badly affected as poc/ queer creators - but it does feel somewhat unfair nonetheless.)
"(...) as Saoirse said, it did open the door to have conversations about how women tend to be the ones who teach men about human decency and highlight the struggles we go through."
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and you put it perfectly! There are so many things men don't think about because it's not part of their experience or their day-to-day life, and it's somewhat baffling that a woman must point it out for them to really notice (and, maybe, understand) it.
I think at my age I haven't fallen down the social media rabbit hole. I've walked the edge but never dropped in. I understand it from the view of the 30s, 40s, and 50s film stars in the magazines. It's the same thing just faster exposure with instant data flowing. Plus women and some small nicer of men, maybe, are more aware of the issues women face. I hope. Thank you for such a good piece. We'll done.
hi Mark!! Thank you for reading! It’s funny how some things never change when it comes to celebrity culture, no matter how deep you’re involved with the online world!!
such an important piece of culture writing, like the way this cycle has become a norm now is wild. an essay i'll be referring people to for years. you guys ate down xx
awwww, thank you for reading and for your words!! i was even hesitant to write about this because i thought, “who cares?” but i am the happiest girl now that i know it is resonating with people.
I LOVE YOU SO MUCH, I always get tingles when I see a notification that you liked anything I posted because your thoughts are so, so important to me!! And knowing you loved something that Luisa and I did is literally so important to me! It’s like my favorite people interacting with my favorite people and omg I could go on LOL but for now I’ll just say thank you a million times, omg!!! ✨✨🥹🥹🥹
when I say the feeling is mutual, believe me 🥹🥹🥹🥹 i'm so in love with your work and your writing and your generosity. know that you have an eternal fan in me!!!! sending you so much love. this was everything 🤌🏿🤌🏿🤌🏿💕💕💕💕💕
So so good! This just became sacred text in my personal pop culture library of Alexandria. I’ll be an old maester sharing this with the girlies. You captured the cycle of the “internet boyfriend” perfectly. I’ve personally found the label to be tired. You can tell it wears on the actors (to a degree) when they have to pop out for press cycles and see it in nearly every profile. These guys are, after all, still 20-something guys. They are going to fuck up, hook up, be messy, and just not be the “written by women” men the label attempts to bestow.
AUTUMN!! LOL CAN I POST THIS COMMENT ON MY NOTES??? oh my god I laughed out loud this means the whole world to me LMAO you’re the besttttt!! thank you!!!! 💌🫶🏻
Great analysis! At 57, I am probably not the demographic for this story, although I am learning so much from you younger, wiser women. As I write my memoir about the year after my husband died, I'm thinking a lot about my younger self (I was clueless). Rather than a midlife crisis, women have a midlife rebirth after years spent raising children and running a household (in addition to having full time jobs outside the home).
There's so much we are learning and I hope we can share some of our hard won wisdom with you (as you so generously share with us) so you fare better in relationships and marriages than we did. I usually don't link articles in the comments, but since I didn't write it I'm not guilty of shameless self promotion (which I'm not above it). Thank you again for a wonderful article!
Do you not like sex or do you just not like patriarchal sex?
This was great! WBOTM is such an interesting phenomena and I loved that you acknowledged part of the downfall often starts when they're attached to a significant other. I was totally guilty of feeling like this when I was younger and watched the celebrity I assumed was my soul mate (Zac Efron? you can still call me lol) get into a relationship and become even more unobtainable. It's only gotten worse as the internet has provided more access to their every move and it's fascinating to watch how quickly the cycle goes these days. Again, well done!
Definitely agree we should pay way less attention to celebrities, but the ‘transgression’ is ridiculous. Yes, 99% of dudes will not think of defending themselves with their phones, and neither will most women, for that matter. If you said ‘keys’ then yeah we have all done the wolverine claw keys thing at some point, but even that is not actually effective, you would more likely break your hand, and we don’t know that en masse because, though the fear is real, we don’t actually have to regularly fight people off.
We are pushing every reasonable argument in public discourse to its breaking point. Yes women get assaulted, yes women are scared to jog at night. But we’re not taking men down with our phones daily. Yes guys can be clueless, but also they are living their own existence, which is different to ours. If I said I don’t really think a kick to the crotch sounds that bad, would I get cancelled? It’s stupid, right, because in my experience, that’s one of my less delicate areas. If at that moment I were not centering the male ball-having experience, would that be a crime against humanity?
Everyone needs to chill a little with the girl power.
It could be just me but I thought his comment wasn't as bad as the Internet made it out to be. Ignorant for sure but it's not really something to be condemned or have a "downfall" for. At the end of the day, like you mentioned, they are still men, of course they don't understand womanhood like a woman does.
loved reading this! it really is so interesting to see these men who are one day randomly deemed ‘male feminists who ‘get’ it’ or ‘wife guys’ put up on a pedestal which they will inevitably fall from, as they are men and simply don’t have the experiences of womanhood to ever fully empathise or relate. i think it’s unfair for all parties.
LEAH!!!!! yes!! you’re so right omg exactly! you nailed it
The guy was being honest, and a realist. If I, or any man I know, is about to be attacked, the phone is the last thing that would come to mind. And no matter how much empathy, or respect, ( downright awe, most of the time ), that I, or men in general have for women, it is impossible for us to fully get the female perspective of living. I have a wife, daughter, and granddaughters, as well as my mother, in my life, and would gladly go to jail if it meant I protected them. I watch out for them. I fear over their safety, as does every man that I would count as a friend, does. It can make for a stressful life, believe me. But I will never be able to fully understand the challenges that are faced by women, and how these impact on their outlook. I think it was a throwaway remark by the man in question, and it was seized upon by those that seem to go out of their way to be offended, or rush to defend those they deem to have been offended. But, hey, I’m a man.. what do I know, eh?
Brilliantly written.
I feel like the WBOTM Fall From Grace is a relative of the idea that any kind of ‘woke media’ (anything made by, for, or featuring marginalised communities) is more likely to be crucified by public opinion than those that don’t even try to be truly inclusive, because inevitably it will fail to deliver in some way, whereas you can’t fail if you don’t try.
In this case, the WBOTM isn’t even necessarily trying; as you’ve said, he’s just a (seemingly) sensitive dude who once wore a mitski t-shirt, so we the public project all these traits and expectations onto him, and turn away in disgust when he doesn’t meet them. (Which is not a lateral comparison to the above in terms of the outcome to their careers or wellbeing - heaven knows white cishet men with fame and money don’t need protecting and are will not be as badly affected as poc/ queer creators - but it does feel somewhat unfair nonetheless.)
point is, we are projecting our fantasies on these men to later be disappointed they didn’t fulfill it. it’s crazyyyy.
thank you for reading and commenting 💕
"(...) as Saoirse said, it did open the door to have conversations about how women tend to be the ones who teach men about human decency and highlight the struggles we go through."
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and you put it perfectly! There are so many things men don't think about because it's not part of their experience or their day-to-day life, and it's somewhat baffling that a woman must point it out for them to really notice (and, maybe, understand) it.
yes! there is definetly a space to have conversations, especially with the ones who are willing to listen
I think at my age I haven't fallen down the social media rabbit hole. I've walked the edge but never dropped in. I understand it from the view of the 30s, 40s, and 50s film stars in the magazines. It's the same thing just faster exposure with instant data flowing. Plus women and some small nicer of men, maybe, are more aware of the issues women face. I hope. Thank you for such a good piece. We'll done.
hi Mark!! Thank you for reading! It’s funny how some things never change when it comes to celebrity culture, no matter how deep you’re involved with the online world!!
such an important piece of culture writing, like the way this cycle has become a norm now is wild. an essay i'll be referring people to for years. you guys ate down xx
awwww, thank you for reading and for your words!! i was even hesitant to write about this because i thought, “who cares?” but i am the happiest girl now that i know it is resonating with people.
I LOVE YOU SO MUCH, I always get tingles when I see a notification that you liked anything I posted because your thoughts are so, so important to me!! And knowing you loved something that Luisa and I did is literally so important to me! It’s like my favorite people interacting with my favorite people and omg I could go on LOL but for now I’ll just say thank you a million times, omg!!! ✨✨🥹🥹🥹
when I say the feeling is mutual, believe me 🥹🥹🥹🥹 i'm so in love with your work and your writing and your generosity. know that you have an eternal fan in me!!!! sending you so much love. this was everything 🤌🏿🤌🏿🤌🏿💕💕💕💕💕
I feel really old reading all of this. Like there is an internet culture I know nothing about lol. Very insightful.
So so good! This just became sacred text in my personal pop culture library of Alexandria. I’ll be an old maester sharing this with the girlies. You captured the cycle of the “internet boyfriend” perfectly. I’ve personally found the label to be tired. You can tell it wears on the actors (to a degree) when they have to pop out for press cycles and see it in nearly every profile. These guys are, after all, still 20-something guys. They are going to fuck up, hook up, be messy, and just not be the “written by women” men the label attempts to bestow.
AUTUMN!! LOL CAN I POST THIS COMMENT ON MY NOTES??? oh my god I laughed out loud this means the whole world to me LMAO you’re the besttttt!! thank you!!!! 💌🫶🏻
of course! of course! hahaha 🥰 and you'reeee the best!!! your writing is so good and so incredibly inspiring 🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻
AW THAT’S THE SWEETEST THING!!! 💌🥹🌟🫶🏻
Great analysis! At 57, I am probably not the demographic for this story, although I am learning so much from you younger, wiser women. As I write my memoir about the year after my husband died, I'm thinking a lot about my younger self (I was clueless). Rather than a midlife crisis, women have a midlife rebirth after years spent raising children and running a household (in addition to having full time jobs outside the home).
There's so much we are learning and I hope we can share some of our hard won wisdom with you (as you so generously share with us) so you fare better in relationships and marriages than we did. I usually don't link articles in the comments, but since I didn't write it I'm not guilty of shameless self promotion (which I'm not above it). Thank you again for a wonderful article!
Do you not like sex or do you just not like patriarchal sex?
https://open.substack.com/pub/celestemdavis/p/patriarchal-sex?r=39usm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Amy!! Thank you for this!! I love you!! ✨🥹🩷
This was great! WBOTM is such an interesting phenomena and I loved that you acknowledged part of the downfall often starts when they're attached to a significant other. I was totally guilty of feeling like this when I was younger and watched the celebrity I assumed was my soul mate (Zac Efron? you can still call me lol) get into a relationship and become even more unobtainable. It's only gotten worse as the internet has provided more access to their every move and it's fascinating to watch how quickly the cycle goes these days. Again, well done!
Fantastic essay: you get a really good purchase on this topic and have such a great, lucid style. Hugely enjoyable read---thank you!
thank, alice!! i’m glad you enjoyed it 💕
Definitely agree we should pay way less attention to celebrities, but the ‘transgression’ is ridiculous. Yes, 99% of dudes will not think of defending themselves with their phones, and neither will most women, for that matter. If you said ‘keys’ then yeah we have all done the wolverine claw keys thing at some point, but even that is not actually effective, you would more likely break your hand, and we don’t know that en masse because, though the fear is real, we don’t actually have to regularly fight people off.
We are pushing every reasonable argument in public discourse to its breaking point. Yes women get assaulted, yes women are scared to jog at night. But we’re not taking men down with our phones daily. Yes guys can be clueless, but also they are living their own existence, which is different to ours. If I said I don’t really think a kick to the crotch sounds that bad, would I get cancelled? It’s stupid, right, because in my experience, that’s one of my less delicate areas. If at that moment I were not centering the male ball-having experience, would that be a crime against humanity?
Everyone needs to chill a little with the girl power.
I cringe whenever a woman refers to me as a white boy. IME often done by non whites to belittle, dont fuck with it.
Frankly, I have absolutely no idea what this is about. Would someone explain please?